Monday, March 17, 2014

P5 Divergent

Ibn, Samiah, Tatiana, Jasmine, Bryanah,Najee -- use this space to begin your discussion of Divergent. You are responsible for reading the first 10 pages, asking a good Level 4 question, and answering it in CCEJ.  You may also add on (new evidence) or disagree with another group member's post. 

62 comments:

  1. What is the purpose of finding your fraction?

    * The purpose of finding your fraction is so the government can know who the divergents are. Beatrice is a divergent and divergents are not allowed within dystopia. Every divergent must be killed in order to keep the "dystopia" alive. “My conclusion is that you display equal aptitude for abnegation, Dauntless, and Erudite. People who get this kind of result are called divergent."

    - Abdul-Malik Ibn Mahdi

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    1. I did not mean Beatrice i meant Tris

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    2. I agree with Ibn answer, because when Beatrice finished the test Tori was surprised. She told Beatrice and i quote "under no circumstances should you share that information with anyone. This is very important" (pg22). I think that shows how dangerous it is to be a Divergent, that's why I agree with what Ibn has said.

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  2. based off of ibn question i belive that finidng your fraction is based off the type of person you are and what you will fit in . In the text it states " today is the day that will show me which of the five fractions i belong in " She is trying to figure out does she fit with aptitiude , candor , dauntless , erudite and abgnetation. . If she shows these things she will be known as a divergent . The purpose of these fractions is to represent does she shows any of this things as a person. Does she fit what the goverment is looking for in a divergent .

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  3. why is it important for beatrice to past the test how does she feel is she doesnt ?
    She is kinda nervous now because of what tori told her. She statrts asking how can she fail a test that you arent allowed to study for ? beatrice begans to worries and says what if shes not gonna fit the expectations if she not cut out for the faction.She states " without a faction we have no purpose and no reason to live "

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    1. To answer Samiah's question I believe it is important for Tris / Beatrice to past the test so she wont became fraction-less. If she becomes fraction less she will become homeless and her family will resent her. She will live an lonely life because she does not have an group / fraction.

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  4. To respond to Ibn's question, I believe that the purpose of being placed in a fraction is the governments way to maintain a status quo in the civilization. This is because the type of society that this novel focuses on values different intellectual classes. This appears in the novel when Tris, the protagonist, is in the process of taking her test to determine what fraction she will be placed in. Tris and her family are all part of the Abnegation fraction, the selfless. When Tris begins to ask the woman question she mentions, " I shiver and goose bumps appear on my arm. My curiosity is a mistake, a betrayal of Abnegation values"(Roth 12). This type of system teaches its people to value and respect the fraction they belong to, so that they would not want to move to any other. This keeps the people satisfied, and prevents any type of rebellion throughout the civilization. While it it fairly soon in the novel, it can be determined that the author's purpose is to show that this civilization appears as a utopian society. Perhaps Tris, the main character, will be the one to reveal its true dystopian characteristics.

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  5. After the test is over, the woman says," 'That was perplexing. Excuse me, I'll be right back''' (Roth 17). What do you think made Tris stand out to the woman? What makes her different from the others?

    From the beginning of the test, Tris manages to stand out to the woman as being different than what she expected. Her curiosity sets her aside from the rest of the members of her fraction. Her sense in rationale is what perplexes the woman. Anyone in her position would have been influenced by the pressure of not being able to prepare for the test. However, like she mentions on page 17 she is aware that her fear is “irrational; this is just a test, it isn't real" (Roth 17). This sort of mentality allows her to push through the challenges throughout the test and thus be completely different to anyone who has ever taken it before her.

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    1. To add on to Tatiana's responds, Tris stand out to the woman because she was able to hold in her fears. During the test she really did not show any fear. Tris is different from all of the others because she was tested into two different fractions. So really Tris is an divergent that can somewhat blend into an crowd. The woman that was doing the test show something more in Tris.

      Do you think Tris should trust her ?

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  6. how does the voacb words have an impact on beatrice ?
    all of these words means something in this text . In order for her to past the text she had to give examples on how she performed that task . She didnt want to fail .the test.So tori was helping her figure out which word she represnted . Like the whole situation with the dog it represented and abgenation response .

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  9. How does Beatrice feels about her and her family being a apart of the faction called abnegation ?

    Beatrice loves the qualities that her family have but she doesn't feel like she belong to that fraction.Beatrice admires her brother's selflessness and how he help others. She also see her mother's and father's happiness and the life that they live being apart of the faction called abnegation. She hopes the abnegation test allow her to find her own fraction but she's afraid what the test would say as well. She sates,"I will decide the rest of my life. I will decide to stay with my family or leave them. On these mornings when my brother makes breakfast…I feel guiltiest for wanting to leave them" (3). Beatrice feel different when she's with her family. She want to explore a different faction and a different life. She can feel that she doesn't belong and she feel bad for wanting that.

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    1. I disagree with Bryanah because Beatrice does not like being within that fraction. She only likes the lifestyle that they lived by. Beatrice says that she liked how the Abnegation was connected and everyone was on the same page. But she doesn't what to be in the fraction for the rest of her life.

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  10. Can the different factions groups at Beatrice school be compared to social groups in real life in schools across America ?

    In Beatrice school each faction sits and converse with the same one as them. They outcast the faction that are differently then their own. In schools across America nerds sit together , jocks sit together , etc. each social groups attracts the people that are similar to them specifically. She states, " At the abnegation table, we sit and wait quietly. I doubt all the erudite want to study all the time , or that every candor enjoys a lively debate, but they can't defy the norms of their factions any more then I can " (9). Beatrice talks about how its the norm to be the same in each factions and how the teens do not go against their own fraction. Their faction is their social group that is difficult for them to get out of due to the norm that they belong to this faction.

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  11. What affect did Beatrice not choosing the cheese or knife have on the results of her faction ?

    Beatrice not choosing either made her a divergent. She did not belong to any of the f factions. Beatrice was faction-less. Her actions didn't choose one faction over the other. The author states, "you display equal aptitude for Abnegation, Dauntless, and Erudite. People who get these results are called divergent" (22). Beatrice decisions led her to not belonging in any faction. If she would had choose the cheese or the night her results would had turned out much differently. As a result of her actions she didn't belong to any faction so she is called a divergent.

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    1. Beatrice is not even fraction less because she is in the fraction of Dauntless. She picked that fraction during the Choosing Ceremony . If she was fraction less she would be called an divergent. An divergent are people that can block their emotions during any situation. Beatrice is an fraction transfer because she really was born within abnegation .

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  12. Why is this test so frighten?
    I think this test is so frighten because Beatrice is afraid of going into another fraction. There are 5 fraction and depending on this test it will determine where she go and she will have to leave her family and will be placed in another family and adopt to their traits. For example it states" I get up because I'm suppose to, but if it were up to me i would stay in my seat of time"(10). This explaining how this test is frighting because she is scared of what her results might be from this test that will determined her life.Beatrice is find where she's at with her family but she know it will change from this test

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  13. How can you live factionless if a test determine which faction you are in ?
    I assume that people become faction less if the test can't determined which faction there are in because of the choice their making in the test for different scenarios. which mean that they can be apart of the society that have the factions. For example it states" To live faction less is not just to live in poverty and discomfort; it is to live divorced from society separated from the most important thing in life community"(20). This explaining how people could live factionless by just taken a test and not meeting the requirement for any of the factions and livening in property because of this test.

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    1. To answer Jasmine's question you don't became fraction less because the test does not choose your fraction. You can became fraction less if you fail one of the stages. The test is just to see what fraction you may fit in but it's your choice to choose the set fraction. At the Choosing Ceremony is where you can chose your own fraction.

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  14. Because Beatrice has a equal aptitude for Abnegation, Dauntless and Erudite does this make her special from others ? is their any one like her.
    Beatrice has a qual aptitude of three faction which makes her out of the ordinarily because Tori is puzzled on the fact that she was tested but she was all three fractions. For example in the text it states "Beatrice she says under no circumstance should you share that information with anyone.This is very important"...I Don't understand how could inconclusive test results be dangerous ? but i still nod. This making her special because Tori is shocked to see she tested and was in 3 faction which was very rare i assume from Tori puzzlement .

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  15. Based off of Jasmine's question I believe that the test is frighted because it predicts the future of kids who need to decide their future based off a test. I will be afraid to the fact that I'm a kid and I have to chose my future at a young age reminding my self that I'm not an kid anymore and that this will help me chose the best life that i can possible. The fact that they are young reflects on them because some of them chose to go with the test but other just want to stay with there family because their afraid of what the world has in store for them.

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    1. I somewhat agree but the test does always predict the teens future. the test is really so the teens can know what fraction they fit in . They stay have their own choice to out they own path. "They are used only for the aptitude test, so I have never been in one before. Unlike the other rooms in the school , they are separated, not by glass, but by mirrors. I watch myself, pale and terrified, walking toward one of the doors." pg 11

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  16. Should a person stay connected to it's orginal fraction?

    I think that a person shouldn't stay with it's orginal fraction becasuse it will only show that either thay were made to stay there or that they are afraid of the fact they are to young to go on their own into a different fraction. They will also believe that family becomes before youeself based on how they think. In the novel it states, " Caleb's name is called in the next group. He moves confidently toward the exit. I don't need to wish him luck or assure him that he shouldn't be nervous. He knows where he belongs, and as far as I know, he always has." This shows that caleb felt the need that he should follow his destiny and change his fraction. The novel states, "I can hear my name... I am sure that I will chose Abnegation. I can see it now. I watch myself grow into a woman in Abnegation robes, marrying Susan's brother, Robert, volunteering on the weekends, the peace of routine" This shows that she just wants to go with want she knows.

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  17. Do you think Beatrice is going play a part in change the future of the kids?

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  18. Why do you think the author choose to add the scene with Al crying at night?

    In the novel Divergent, Veronica Roth chooses to include many details that may seem irrelevant to the text. Among these, she includes the scene when Tris hears Al squealing in the bedroom. For someone who comes from abnegation, the selfless, she ironically turns her back when she sees an opportunity to leave. Roth writes, " Instead I feel disgust. Someone who looks so strong shouldn't act so weak...My problem might be that even if I did go home, I wouldn't belong there, among people who give without thinking and care without trying"(Roth 75). The author of this novel very intentionally chooses to incorporate this scene because it gives the reader insight to the main character's personality. Additionally, it helps the reader understand why it is that Tris choose to leave her fraction. Perhaps Tris choose the correct fraction when choosing dauntless, even if it does put her life in danger.

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  19. Thus far, what kinds of things does Roth write about to let the reader know Tris lives in a dystopian society?

    The archetype of a dystopian society appear throughout the novel, Divergent. This type of society is a a civilazation where societal control and the illusion of a perfect society are kept through totalitarian control. Roth emphasizes that information, independent thought, and freedom are restricted through the main character, Tris. Tris belongs to a fraction called, Abnegation, this fraction demands their members to be selfless. The government of this society putrs such a burden of ist citizens that even thinking of another fraction if morally wrong to them. We see examples of this as Roth repeatedly qrites about Tris and her guilt to have left her fraction. Roth writes, " It doesn't matter that next time I see my parents, Visiting Day, they will barely recognize me- if they come at all...I can't cry, not here, I have to calm down"(Roth 72). Her guilt lets the reader know how controlled the citizens of this community are. While the have the freedom to choose their fraction, they lack the freedom to be individuals, because this society is soley divided into five fractions.

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  20. Based on Tris's results, she should be extremely cautious in her new fraction, specially considering that Dauntless holds mental tests as part of initiation, can you predict what will happen to Tris when she does end up taking these tests?

    Tris's results were "inconclusive", meaning that she placed into more than one fraction. Her brain works in different ways than most of the people living in her society. Being divergent threatens the system that the government has set up for centuries, and so Divergents are not accepted by the community. The main character will most likely get caught because she is aware that the test is fake, her response to each stigmatism is divergent, not Dauntless. Roth describes the way that Tris was thinking as she was taking her placement test. She writes, " He leans close to my face. His breath smells like cigarettes. Not real, I remind myself. Not real"(Roth 17). The mental test will reveal Tris's true secret. Society will come to the realization that Tris is not just a member of Dauntless, but a true threat to the dystopian society they have been able to maintain for years.

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  21. Do you think Divergent is an uystopa or an dystopia.
    The book Divergent is an dystopia because the citizens has to do follow an norm for each fraction. They did not have an chance to chose what they wanted to do. "The houses on my street are all the same size and shape. They are made of grey cement, with few windows, in economical, no- nonsense rectangles. " pg 27 Each fraction had to dress the same and their house has to be the same so everyone can feel equal as an society.

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  22. I agree with Ibn Divergent is an dystopia. The reason I say this is because dystopia is world or society where the government or some other group of people has taken control of how and where people live. Freedom is eliminated as the government decides what's best for people. Divergent is a dystopian novel because the world, the society takes away freedom of choice and forces people to live in 5 different factions: Abnegation, Amity, Candor, Dauntless, and Erudite. Being different out of those 5 factions like being Divergent will have you killed.

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  23. To answer jasmine question the reason why Beatrice is so frightened when she takes the test because she knew that if she didnt past then she would become fractionless and thats not something she wanted . That why she was so freaked out because she wanted to make sure that she fit one of the fraactions. She didnt want to fail the test at all

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  24. to answer ibn question i believe that it is an dystopia because basically everything is control by the government. People are getting put into the fraction that they fit. If you dont fit into any of them you will be killed / fraction less and nobody wanted that at all . In the text it states " Candor has provided us with trustworthy and sound leaders in law " this means that each fractions runnened buy the law and people must reach it in order to be categorized as one . They really didn't have a choose to choose what they wanted to be. They had to follow whatever was giving to them. It was controlling they controlled how they lived and everything. So yes divergent can be labeled as a dystopia

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  25. I agree with nahjee i believe that person should stay to there original fraction because it was reason why they were apart that certain fraction. In the text it states " In our fractions we , we find meaning , we find purpose , we find life ". This means that each person are in the fraction that they belong. So they shouldn't want to change into another one. Each person has to fit different qualities to be labeled as the fraction. So it wouldn't make since for them to want to change form there original one .

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    1. they are in the right one to begin with . " those who blame ignorance becomes the Erudite " and so on each one means something different. The so staying your original one will make sense

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  26. why does fear plays a huge role in divergent ?
    Everybody is nervous basically, There main fear is death and to become franctionless . That is there biggest fear they all are nervous. They need to just make sure they continue following whatever fraction they in because they know that they were chosen for a reason. but nobody wants to be a disappointment .

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    1. I somewhat agree with Samiah because everyone does have fear but the divergents does not show their fear. An divergent can manipulate each and every test . They had in their fears and they can blend in every fraction. " I could be good at the simulations, if i mastered whatever force helped me break the glass . I could be so good that all the instructors took notice. I could, but will I?" pg 259

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  27. What was Tris' s reasoning for getting three flying birds tattooed ?

    Tris wanted to honor her old life as she embrace her new life. Tori told Tris of her tattoos and the significance it had towards her. The tattoos represented a fear that Tori had overcame. Tris wanted to remember all of the family members she left behind. She states," I touch my collarbone, marking the path of the flight toward my heart. One for each member if my family I left behind" (90) . Tris left her family for a new life. She wanted the tattoo to be a way to remember. She wanted to live her new life without forgetting her past one.

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  28. Why do Tris feel like she doesn't belong with her family ?

    Tris actions and emotions doesn't portray the faction her family belong to. Tris family's faction help others. They feel the need to do what's best. This on the other hand didn't want to help Al when he was crying because she felt that he should be strong.Her family would be disappointed at her because of that. She states, "Why can't he just be quiet like the rest of us...no one has to know I don't want to help him.My problem is if I go home I won't belong there" (75). Tris was different then her family. She wasn't like them. She felt differently and knew she didn't belong with them.


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  29. What does the pit represents to you ?

    The pit represents a person's adult hood. Each faction have to overcome a serious of events in order to reach the end goal of mind which is to be apart of their faction. Going through a many tasks allows them to be prepared for the real world. The author states," were about to go to the pit , which you will learn to love" (62). I believe that as an adult in the real world you learn to love your circumstances. The pit allows the teens to grow and enter the world if obstacles that they much face. They are now all entering the conflicts of a world.

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  30. Out of all the factions why did she pick Dauntless?
    Beatrice probably pick Dauntless because she had a feeling in her heart that she was brave and could hand the challenge. For example it the text it states " I shift my hand forward, and my blood sizzles on the coals I am selfish. Iam brave" (47). This showing how she thought no other faction was for her because she believe she wasn't nice and was selfish. So she decide to go to the brave wild Dauntless because she thought that, was the best fit on the action she had made.

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  31. Why Beatrice decide to jump off building?
    I think Beatrice decide to jump off the building because she didn't want to be faction less and wanted to show others that she had the courage to be the first person to jump off the building. For example it states " If you can't muster the will to jump off you don't belong here... Iam proud. It will get me into trouble someday, but today it make me brave.I walk toward the ledge and hear snickers behind me"57". This showing that she jumped off the building to provide to everyone that she is not afraid. And she didn't want to not belong to the Dauntless and be fraction less so she had no choice.

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    1. Tris jumped off the train because she did not want to became fraction-less . If they did not any stage they will became fraction-less. "No, it won't ! I'd rather be faction-less than dead!" The Amity boy shakes his head. He sound panicky. He keeps shaking his head and staring at the rooftop, which is getting closer by the second." pg 54 This is the reason Tris jumped onto the building.

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  32. What will the pit represent ?
    I think the pit will represent the rest of the new member to the Dauntless lives and a place where the pit help them out in a way to became a Dauntless. For example Four states " We're about to go to the pit which you will someday learn to love it "(62). Which is saying how the pit would probably make there life hell and will make them probably train to be a dauntless and they would eventually like it through the struggle they would face in the pit.

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  33. Why do you that each fraction has ranking? What does the ranking have to do with each different fraction?

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  35. Does anyone else feel like Four is an Divergent because he connects to Beatrice Tris? He comforts her when shes in pain or when every she is upset and something.



    I will answer the question on Tuesday or Wesnday because i dont have my book. If you see my book in History class on Tuesday in room 407 or 402 can you take it and give it to me whenever you see me the next day. Thank you

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  36. Based off of this quote Four saved Tris life when she was going to be killed by Al, Peter, and Drew. Four almost killed peter but the others run away because they was sacred. " I deposited Drew at the infirmary a half hour ago", he says ." " Peter and Al ran. Drew claimed they were just trying to scare you . At least, I think that's what he was trying to say". pg 284 Do you think that Four and Tris is going to work together to bring down the fraction ?
    I believe that four is going to work with Tris to bring down the fraction and government. Four saved Tris life when she was going to be killed by Al, Peter, and Drew. Four almost killed peter but the others run away because they was sacred. " I deposited Drew at the infirmary a half hour ago", he says ." " Peter and Al ran. Drew claimed they were just trying to scare you . At least, I think that's what he was trying to say". pg 284 Four stares at him for a few seconds and then laughs ." Do you really what to talk to me about what's fair?" " I understand why you're worried, Peter. The events of last night certainly proved that you are you are a miserable coward." " So now we all know." says Four, quietly, " that you are afraid of a short, skinny girl from Abnegation." pg 298 From this I say that Four and Tris is going to work together shut down the government.

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  37. Does anyone else feel like Four is an Divergent because he connects to Beatrice Tris?
    I believe that Four may be an Divergent because they have an connection. "Don't play stupid," he says. "I suspected it last time but this time it's obvious. You manipulated the simulation; you're Divergent. I'll delete the footage, but unless you want to wind up dead at the bottom of the chasm, you'll figure out how to hide it during the simulations! Now, if you'll excuse me."pg 256 I believe if he was not an divergent as well he will not delete the footage from the simulation. Tris latter went to someone in the tattoo parlor, " Among other thing, you are someone who is aware, when they are in a simulation, that what are experiencing is not real." she says. " Someone who can then manipulate the simulation or even shut it down . And also..." " Someone who, because you are also Dauntless... tends to die."pg 257

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  38. To answers jasmine question the pit represents like an underground road or something . In the text it states " it is an underground cavern so huge i cant see the other end of it from where i stand..(63). . The purpose of this pit was to show how the dauntless was doing things. It shows the diffeerent paths. How there clothing , fooding , and all the activites that was going on. The pit was for the initiase to see how they was going to be if there was in the pit.Thats why they had a tour of tha place and Four told them that somebody they will leran to love it because this how it was going to be for them. Thats why they got to see for there own eyes what type of place the "Pit " was.

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  39. To answers bryanah question tris question tris getting thwm tattoos wassnt the plan at first. But the birds was getting her attention. Although she knw that if she got it it will be another problem she have in her family that she can not take back.. They was already having wedges betwenn them. So once tori told eher what her tatoo reperesent it states " representing a fear she overcame " (90) it made tris thinl about how she was slready hurt becaue she didnt fit along with her family to begin with so it was a way for her to embrace her new life. SO she decides to get it and it represent each familyleft behind. Its like she starting fresh by getting this tatted . since she didnt belong with her family it was time for her to do somehting new too move on and get over it

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  40. to answer ibn question i belive that four has always been a divergent from sincer the beggining. There shouldnt be any confusion about that . Now that he can relate to both beatrice and tris. But especially tris becaus he was able to save her life. In his other question the reason why fractions has its own ranking and what it has to do with the eachohter different ranking is that every fraction is ranked in there own way and they are all different from one another. It depends on what ever you fraction you are in and how things are done for whatever fraction your in. Each of them have there own way on how they do things . How they accknowledge things .Whatever ranking they fit

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  41. Why does Eric tell the initiates that he anticipated that a lot more people would make it to the Dauntless.
    I think Eric say that he anticipated that more people would make it to the Dauntless because it was a sense of sarcasm. He really think thats it would be less that would make it for example in the text it states" you will notice that there are ten beds and only nine of you we anticipated that a higher proportion of you would make it this far, but we started with twelve" protests Christina(71). This showing how Eric used a sense of sarcasm to tell the initiates that he anticipated a higher amount will have survive. When actually a lot of people didn't survive because the Dauntless require bravery and doing crazy things.

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  42. What do you think society values most ?
    I believe society values being apart of a fraction then actually having a life that they have to live for. For example in the text it states " My stomach sinks and i stare at the railroad tracks. Not everyone made it.And even the Dauntless aren't safe" (55).This showing how the society values being a fraction then having their life. The girl decide that she would jump off the train and didn't make it and died because she was trying to live a Dauntless life and be apart of this fraction.

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  43. After you are joined in the fraction like the Dauntless what would your job be for a life time ?
    I think eventually you will be ranked and then the people that are higher then the initiates will give them a job abd tell them what they would have to do in the future to be successful In the faction i will assume. For example in the text it states" Your ranking serves two purpose he says" (71).The first is that it determines the order in which you will select a job after initiation. This explaining how after the initiates join their new fraction there people that are above them will determine their future success based on their ranking.

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  44. What is the difference between being fearless and learning to control your fears? How does the question relate to the story ?

    Throughout the book "Divergent" Tris had to overcome the many fears that was placed in front of her. She had to overcome obstacles that require her to be fearless in order to get through the obstacles and not be afraid. Tris talked about how over the past weeks she had become less afraid due to the more challenging obstacles that was put in front her. She states," Half of bravery is perspective. The first time I did this was one of the hardest things I had ever done. Now , preparing to jump of the movie train is nothing" (458). Tris learned to control her fear by seeing it from another point of view. Once she experienced her fear once it was much easier to be in front of her fear again because she seen it a previous time. She learned to control the fear by knowing that she did it before and nothing can be as bad as the first time.

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  45. To respond to Bryanah's previous question, I believe this directly applies to Divergents in the novel.

    Throughout the novel, Tris deals with alot of moments in which she finds herself being fearful for what might happen to her because of the results she obtained in the test at the beginnig of the novel. It is not until she meets Four that she realizes that becoming fearless may be impossible for her, and that she has to learn to deal with her fears. Four says to her, "Becoming fearless isn't the point. That's impossible. It's learning how to control your fear, and how to be free from it, that's the point" (Roth 239). She realizes she can not change the fact that she is divergent, and she can not take away her fear, the only thing she is in control of is learning how to control her fears.

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  46. So for do you think that Tris is going to get caught for being an divergent ?

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  47. Well my question is does anyone think that Four and Tris will work together to stop the fractions?
    I believe that they will work together to stop the fraction. Because the part of the book that I am reading four is teaching the transfers to act like an Divergent. " Through your simulations, we have stored data about your worst fears. The fear landscape accesses that data and present you with a series of virtual obstacles. Some of the obstacles will be fears you previously faced in your simulations. Some may be new fear. The difference is that you aware, in the fear landscape, that it is a simulation, so you will have your wits about you as you go through it." pg 296 " That means that everyone will be like divergent in the fear landscape. I don't know if that's a relief , because I can't be detected, or a problem, because I won't have the advantage." pg 297

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