Roderick, Morgan, Tasneem -- use this space to begin your discussion of Divergent. You are responsible for reading the first 10 pages, asking a good Level 4 question, and answering it in CCEJ. You may also add on (new evidence) or disagree with another group member's post.
The question I would like to pose is: why do you think women are considered inferior when they play the largest roles in their dystopian society?
ReplyDeleteI believe that the reason they continue to treat the women the way they do because the women don't challenge the authority figures the way the narrator wishes she could. The narrator constantly narrates the story with very little conversational interaction with others but constantly questions herself about everything she sees. She wants to rebel but sheis always concerned with fulfilling her duties and daydreaming about her life before the societal shift that she gets easily distracted. I think she is so focused on discovering who she is and what is happening around her that she thinks nothing of the obscurities around her as well as the other females. The simple solution would be for all of the women to uprise and use their numbers against the men. The short answer is, everyone is oblivious to the obscurities because they're blinded by their need to find themselves or just conform with society and the new roles.
I agree with you that the reason that women are treated inferior to their dystopian society is because women don't challenge their authority figures, and I think that women are afraid to fight back against the guardians and other authority figures they must conform to. In the text it says, "I open the white picket gate and continue, past the front lawn and towards the front gate. In the driveway, one of the Guardians assigned to our household is washing the car" (Atwood 17). The women were scared to ever fight for themselves because the Guardians were always there watching over them.
DeleteThis is an interesting theory. I like your analysis of the narrative form and it's passivity. As the story goes on you may come to think that you're underestimating the brutality of this regime that has terrified the handmaids and all women into submission. I wish you wrote more posts because all of your analysis is so insightful! 15/45
ReplyDeleteAt this point, a majority of the characters and groups have been introduced to the audience. The task I am giving the members of this group is to create a social pyramid, and justify why you chose to place at least two of the groups where you have placed them. Obviously the level of importance of the positions vary depending on gender. The men will always be on top of the women, but there are several male positions. To make it much simpler, this post would be dedicated to the Women, and the next consecutive post will be dedicated to the men.
ReplyDeleteWith the top being of the highest stature, and the bottom being of the lowest, I would organize the groups in this order (based on groups introduced from page one to page 50 from top to bottom) : The commanders’ wives, the widow, Handmaids, Angels, Eyes, Marthas, and the Econowives. It is blatantly obvious that the wives are at the top of the social pyramid. In chapter five, Offred goes to the supermarket with Ofglen. Walking to the supermarket, as they are supposed to walk every day, at least once a day, to remain fertile, Offred starts to describe the different groups she notices walking down the street. She mentions that the “[they] don’t see the commanders’ wives on the sidewalks, only in cars” (Atwood 24) revealing yet another societal rule in this dystopian society. The commanders’ wives are of the highest stature according to the privileges they are granted. They have other women from other groups like the Marthas to do their work for them; it is almost as if they are considered to be royalty while everyone else is their peasants. One thing I find to be interesting about the commanders’ wives is that they resent the Handmaid’s because their husbands are having children with them and have the ability to have children, an ability they no longer have. I feel that the Handmaid’s should be more respected because they are the ones who keep the human race from going extinct.
The Econowives are last on the social pyramid because they are forced to do more work than the rest. The higher the level of importance, the less work they have to do in society. In the same section, Offred describes the Econowives as, “[wearing outfits] cheap and skimpy, that mark the women of the poorer men…These women are not divided into functions. They have to do everything; if they can” (Atwood 24). The Econowives have no one to wait on them hand and foot like some of the groups. They are also poor and married to the poorer men. Due to these simple factors, they shall be considered the lowest on the social pyramid.
I agree, I'd also like to add this idea that Handmaid's are kinda like slaves. To begin with, they aren't allowed to own anything for themselves, in the text Offred says " The door of the room-not my room, I refuse to say my-is not locked" (Atwood 08). Also, instead of having their own identities Handmaid's are given their owners names. In the text it says, "Who is it? I hear behind me. Ofwayne. No. Ofwarren" (Atwood 26). This shows how Handmaid's are like slaves because they're property of the Commander's and own nothing for themselves.
DeleteFor the males' social pyramid, according to roles and positions Atwood has presented so far, I would organize them as so: Commanders, Guardians, and Angel Makers, and the poor men.
ReplyDeleteThe Commanders are obviously first because they are the most priveleged. They are polygamists, and have all of the same privileges as their female counter parts. The reason the Guardians are second is because they are the protectors of the faith. They seem to be less important than the commanders because they are all either "stupid or older or or disabled or very young" (20) according to Offred.The reason I have placed them above the rest is because of their jobs. The Guardians are guardians of the faith. They are soldiers and sworn to protect their dystopian society by fighting for their faith. The angel makers are clearly placed lower on the pyramid because of their job (this is solely based on the perspective of the majority in the book). The angel makers are abortion doctors. Offred says, "they were doctors, then, in the time before, when such things were legal" (32). Abortions are illegal and immoral considering what the women have to go through to create such life, and they are very valued. I believe life is something valued, especially over the act of creating it.
The question I would like to pose over the weekend is, what is the significance of all of the handmaids' names beginning with the prefix "Of-"?
ReplyDeleteThe significance of the handmaids' names all beginning with the "Of-" is that it shows that they are the property of their commanders. Although handmaid's are crucial to the fertilization of their society, they're still seen as inferior and insignificant, and aren't allowed to obtain anything of their own. In the text it says, "I stopped walking. Ofglen stops beside me and I know that she too cannot take her eyes off these women...Then I think I used to dress like that. That was freedom" (Atwood, 28). This shows that despite being significant to their society, handmaid's were looked at as inferior and were the property of their commanders.
DeleteI agree. I have discovered this when Offed and Ofglen were at the supermarket, and the two pregnant women walked in and they were trying to identify them. One of the handmaid's accompanying Offred said, "Ofwayne? Ofwarren?", and I then came to the realization that all of their names start with Of to show that they are possessions. I feel that this is significant because it possession seems to be mentioned a lot of the time, especially when she is having flashbacks, and is thinking of the things she used to be able to call her own. Possession itself is significant because it could possibly be a motif.
DeleteTasneem -- your questions and analysis are OUTSTANDING! Keep up the good work. This is college-level discussion. Excellent.
ReplyDeleteOn page 56, Offred says, "We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it" (Atwood 56). What do you think she meant by that? Do you agree that there is a difference between "ignoring" and "ignorance"?
ReplyDeleteI think that she was referencing the fact that they are forced to be apart of this new way of life, and there are so many things they have had to change. On the same page Offred was talking about how Moira, her best friend, plans on throwing an "underwhore party". She clearly admires Moira's free spirit, and later asks, "is that how we lived, then?" (Atwood 56), wondering to herself if everyone had lived this freely in the life before their society became a dystopia. I feel like she is saying that they are now surviving by ignoring what is happening around them. They're ignoring the changes that are happening to them and those around them as a means of survival.
I agree that there is a difference between "ignoring" and "ignorance". For starters, "ignoring" is an act while i believe that "ignorance" is something that you are. or a state of being. The figurative difference is that "ignoring" is disregarding something by choice while being "ignorant" or having "ignorance" is something that someone can't control. When Offred says that there is a difference between "ignoring" and "ignoring", I think she is saying that they are well aware of what is happening, but are choosing to disregard it. This, to me, shows them holding on to what little bit of free will they have left. I find that possession is a motif in this book. Being able to ignore something shows that they have something to call their own, something that they have control over. I think that makes this quote extremely significant to the story.
I agree completely that ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, and i think what she meant by it is that they try to ignore or distract themselves in a way where they don't have to think about the kind of predicament that they're in, because they have no kind of possession over their own selves and no kind of free-will. And what she meant by saying that ignorance is different from ignoring is that they know and are aware of how miserable of a life they have to live but they try not to think about it .
DeleteOn page 80, Offred says, "The rug is authentic. Some things in this room are authentic, some are not" (Atwood 80). What is she alluding to, if anything, when she is talking about authenticity?
ReplyDeleteI think she is alluding to the part of the book when she was having to compose herself. There are several points in the book when she makes a comparison between a human and an animal or an inanimate object, but this is one of the few times when she directly references herself. I belive that at this point, she is at dinner, and she is talking about her plan of using butter later on that night as midnight snack, which she isn't allowed to do. She then says, "it would not do, this evening to smell of butter... I compose myself. My self is a thing I must now compose as one composes a speech. What I must present is a made thing, not something born" (Atwood 66), which I feel is a direct criticism of the society she lives in. To compose something, means to manufacture. If she has to make herself out to be something else, she is not natural (hince the part when she said, "not something born"). If she is not natural, she is not authentic, or real. I feel like when she said that some things in that room aren't authentic, then she was talking about herself and alluding to earlier parts of the text. This also reveals another possible motif: authenticity, realness, or being made into something.
On page 84, Offred says, "your name is like your telephone number, useful only to others" (Atwood 84). What do you think this means?
ReplyDeleteIn this section, Offred was saying that "Offred" isn't her real name, which readers should've all known by now. I think she came to an epiphany and has decided to reclaim some of the things she feels belongs to her. This is an obvious sign of defiance. I think this quote means that your name is not meant for you to identify yourself; It meant to be helpful for others to identify you. I think significance of Offred sharing this is that she feels like her name isn't hers because it isn't how she chooses to identify herself, and she is all about self- empowerment at the moment. I think this is something noteworhty.
When Offred says that your name is like your telephone number, useful only to others I think that she means that your name doesn't really belong to you but to others so they could have something to identify you, and distinguish you from others. I also agree with you that Offred shared this because it isn't how she chooses to identify herself because that isn't even her real name, and she feels like her name or anybody else's name doesn't really belong to them, but are just used for people to distinguish them from others.
DeleteWhy was Offred relieved that Ofglen committed suicide?
ReplyDeleteFrom my understanding, Offred is relieved that ofglen is dead because she feared that she would have revealed offred's secret desire to rebel. I also think she is relieved because she thought ofglen was pressuring her to take risks. She says, "now that ofglen is gone I am alert...I should not take unnecessary risks" (284). I could be misunderstanding, but it seems as though offred was doing things she wouldn't otherwise had the courage to do if it weren't for ofglen, whom she shared her secrets and desires with. Ofglen's death means security for offred.
ReplyDelete"Forgiveness is a power. To beg for it is a power, and to withhold or bestow it is a power, perhaps the greatest" (135). What was the purpose of Offred mentioning this?
DeleteI think this was offred's way of attempting to reclaim her power. One of the biggest motifs in this book is power. The whole society is based on competition between the powerful and powerless. Offred attempts to reclaim her power by justifying get constant temptation to forgive by claiming that "maybe none of this is about control. Maybe it isn't really about whom can own whom...Who can sit and who has to kneel...maybe it's about who can do what to whom and be forgiven for it" (135). This attempt to get her power back makes her feel better about herself and her wanting to forgive everyone for everything they have done to her.
What historical event does any part of this book remind you of?
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 25, Offred is with the commander. The commander, as usual is offering her a gift. This gift is a girdle. The commander says that he is in possession of the girdle because he, like others, have an appreciation for the old things. Offred responds by saying, "but these were supposed to have been burned...there were house-to-house searches, bonfires" (157). The burning and house raids remind me of the holocaust. During the holocaust, there were house raids for gold, money, and anything valuable. There seems to be several historical like events happening in this book, ranging from the holocaust to feminist protests (bra burnings, magazine burnings, etc.).