Zaniyah, Shakiim, Alysha, Shania, Naheem -- use this space to begin your discussion of Divergent. You are responsible for reading the first 10 pages, asking a good Level 4 question, and answering it in CCEJ. You may also add on (new evidence) or disagree with another group member's post.
Based on the first 10 pages, what do you think makes this society of Oceania a dystopia?
ReplyDeleteI believe that the society of Oceania is a dystopia due to it's way of monitoring people's actions, behavior, and thoughts. The first character we meet is a man named Winston and he is cautious of his actions and thoughts because of the monitoring system. "Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was no way of knowing if you were being watched or heard" (3). The government uses these telescreens to keep tabs on the people of this society in order to keep them from opposing the government rule. I'm assuming that if they do or say something that goes against the government, then they may be punished or arrested for their betrayal. The society of Oceania is a dystopia in the immoral way that citizens are monitored at all times.
I think it's a dystopia because it sets a mood of fear when it says "big brother is watching you" (page2). When Winston was describing his journey to the Ministry of Truth he constantly describes the cold stare of the poster. Winston also says that the posters are everywhere. The fact that posters are constantly watching makes one feel like their privacy is not being respected. The poster says "big brother" meaning the government. Having a society that the government is always watching you creates fear because it makes people feel like they don't have free will or privacy. A dystopia is basically when harsh rules are put in place by the government. The government has over stepped their boundaries, leaving the citizens with no one to hold them accountable. This is fear because citizen turn to the government for justice, so who do they turn to when the government itself is being unjust?
DeleteI disagree with your interpretation of "Big Brother" which you described as the government. Big Brother is either a figurehead or the head of the dystopian society, something like our President. He is in fact a person given much respect, fear, and authority in the society. "But in the same moment, drawing a deep sigh of relief from everybody, the hostile figure melted into the face of Big Brother, black-haired, black-mustachio'd, full of power and mysterious calm, and so vast that it almost filled up the screen" (Orwell 15-16). Big Brother is clearly a man whom is respected by the masses, but may also hold a sense of control over the citizens as well. The posters suggest that this man, whoever he is, is watching everyone to ensure that they don't think of anything that goes against him or the government. Big Brother may be a part of the government, but he is surely a man in charge and responsible for the people's lack of privacy in expression and in thought.
DeleteI agree with naheem on what makes Oceania a dystopia. The fact that someone controls their thoughts on what they think is morally correct. Their is no such thing as what is morally corect or wrong. Society pusts limits on what they think that is. In Oceania this is since by having a thought police. In the text it states, " A day never passed when spies and sabotuers acting under his directions were not unmasked by the Thought Police"( page 13). The quotation is basically explaining how everyday the commandor conspirators working aganist the state was exposed. They were found based on the directions he gave. Or simply because of their their thoughts. The thought police controlled everyone thoughts. So if they randomly decide to listen to your thoughts and you were thinking of something they dont approve. They would make you disappear as if you never exsited.
DeleteI'm sorry you all are right. But that still makes it a dystopia . The fact that big brother "is watching you" (Orwell 2) . Even though big brother is not the government, its a specific person the fact that they are currently being watched and have supervision makes the community a dystopia. They are also a dystopia because they had the thought police they have no privacy.
DeleteYou're analytic break down of that was very helpful Naheem because like shania I thought that big brother pertained to the government as well. But to answer you're question, based on the first ten pages, a dystopia is evident through the slogans and aspects of the Oceania society. This society is constantly watched and monitored. Their minds can be read which reveals a sense of control over them. They are forced to live by the saying " war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength" which is obviously backwards. War doesn't promote peace, freedom is the opposite of slavery and ignorance is weakness. The society lacks the opportunity to have a mind of their own, making this society a dystopia.
ReplyDeleteWhich aspects of this society shocked you ? Why ? Or to what extent does this community effect the children?
ReplyDeleteAn aspect of this society was the way they raise their children. If I interpreted it correctly, I believe the children were able to attended violent shows. Winston is with Mrs.Parson and her children throw a temper tantrum because they can't go see the "hanging". "Some Eurasian prisoners, guilty of war crimes, were to be hanged ... This happens about once a month. Children always clamored to be taken to see it"(23). The children are severly impacted by this society as they are included and aware of everything going on around them, which was appalling.
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DeleteThis society is raising their childern as if they are adults. They place no limits on the childern. They alllow the childern to do things which adults do. Such as view violent scenary and talk as they please. The way childern talk to other kids their age. Can be seen as disrepect and that they are being grown. Or too mature for their age. In the text it states, " You're a traitor! Yelled the boy. You're a thought - criminal! You're a Eurasian spy! I'll shoot you, I'll vaporize you, I'll send you to the salt mines!"( page 23). This young boy who is nine years old is talking to this grown man like this. This is disrepectful to tell an adult you shoot them. Kids can voice their opinions as if they are adults. This tells alot about how they raise their childern and what they believe is morally correct. This is what shocked me about their society
DeleteHow is it possible in the world of Oceania to think without having your personal thoughts, beliefs, and opinions assumed to be thoughtcrimes?
ReplyDeleteThe only way to securely think without having the pressure of Thoughpolice and committing thoughtcrime on your mind was to use "Reality Control". "Reality Control" in the world of Oceania is a newspeak term which basically means to double think. "To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which canceled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them" (35). In Oceania, the people have created "Reality Control" in order to protect their thoughts and have accurate and true facts within their minds despite the government erasing an event or a person from the past or present. This unique technique requires for one to acknowledge something to be true, but to undermine it's credibility by believing in the opposite or what the government wants to be believed. The complex technique is an exemplary thought process and form of self-hypnosis which shields the actual thoughts of the people of Oceania from the Thoughtpolice.
Other than Reality control their is no other way to control their thoughts. Even though winston has a diary and he cant even keep his thoughts in there without thinking he is going to get his life taken away. In the text it states, " DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER. was written all over it, in letters almost big enough to be legible across the room. It was an inconceivably stupid thing to have done." He finally realizes he could get in trouble for that too. He gets nerves as someone knocks because he thinks he going to get taken away. So every little move can cost him his life. If he doesnt apply reality control as naheem states, then he will find his self getting taken away.
DeleteI have to ask a question what if 1984 is not a dystopia. A dystopia is a basically a crazy community. What if the thought police is not that bad. In today's society you know people's thoughts get them in trouble. Peoples thought cause them to do bad things . what if the thought police is not absurd idea maybe is what we need. Winston is going against the government, which is a bad thing . He writes "DOWN WITH BIG BROTHER" (Orwell 18). He wants to create mischief within the community. If they had that thought police and this will keep down the problems in the community. Just think if Newark had the thought police anyone who thinks of doing harm to another will go to jail will be erased from society, never to cause harm again. This will lower the crime rate significantly.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think Winston writes in his diary?
ReplyDeleteI think Winston chooses to write in the diary in order to separate reality from the world the government has created with all of it's fables and inaccuracies. Writing in the diary would ensure that his memories are in a secure place since his mind and thoughts were being monitored by the Thoughtpolice. Although writing in the diary means he's thinking of actual facts, he runs risk of exposing himself to the Thoughtpolice. "And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting" (35). Acknowledging the past could be dangerous if that specific part of history had been erased or changed. Having that knowledge made you a wanted person and so people had to hide what they actually knew. Winston for instance writes in his diary so that he could hold his memories of the real past that has not been altered stored and not have to worry about thinking of them within his mind which could alert the Thoughtpolice. Winston writes in his diary as a precaution to being caught or monitored by the mighty Thoughtpolice.
In what way does Winston flout the rulings of the government?
ReplyDeleteWinston disregards the laws of the government and is undermining the authority of Big Brother by admitting to having sex with a prostitute despite the law against having sex with a prostitute or having sex for personal pleasure. Winston confesses to having a sexual affair or encounter with a prole prostitute and having sex with her did not serve the purpose of reproducing. Having sex with prostitutes was illegal because it meant that you were having sex for your own personal fulfillment and pleasure, not to populate the world with more members for the party(kids). "When he had gone with that woman it had been his first lapse in two years or thereabouts. Consorting with prostitutes was forbidden, of course, but it was one of those rules that you could occasionally nerve yourself to break" (64-65). Winston disregards the law against having sex for personal pleasure and with a prostitute. Winston was rebelling against the government of Oceania and undermining the authority of Big Brother by disobeying his wishes. This act of rebellion could result in the capture of Winston as a law breaker and a Thoughtcriminal. By having sex with the prole prostitute, Winston shows his disregard for the Oceanian government and Big Brother.
In what way does Winston believe that society can digress and no longer be run by the current government and Big Brother?
ReplyDeleteWinston believes that society will be ale to digress one day, but with the help and rebellion of the proles living within his society. The prole people are considered to be inferior in Oceania and so they aren't expected to heed Big Brothers words, for they are the same as animals in the eyes of the government. "But the proles, if only they could somehow become conscious of their own strength, would have no need to conspire" (70) .The Proles are thought to be so inferior that they aren't even monitored by the Thoughtpoilice and aren't seen as threats. With all o the space they are given to do as they want, Winston believes that a rebellion within themselves could possibly turn things around. Winston strongly believes that if there is any hope in overthrowing the Party, it lies within the power and underestimation of the Proles. The proles aren't smart enough to conspire anything as such but under the right leadership they could overthrow the Party and Big Brother. Winston feels that the Proles are the key to overthrowing the Party for they are strong but completely underestimated.
SHAKIIM:
ReplyDeleteHow does Winston reaction differ to o brien reaction to Winston being in jail?
They reactions differ because Winston is surprised when he sees o brien in the cell. Winston feels this way because he is supposed to be the leader of the brotherhood so how would the brotherhood prosper if o brien is in jail. But when I brien sees Winston in jail he says" they got me a long time ago" he refers to the thought police when he says they an what he possibly means by this is the was never free they always have had him in jail. These reactions differ because I brien is not so surprised as Winston is.
What is o brines intentions with Winston when Winston is locked up?
O brines intentions with Winston is not to let him sit in jail but most likely is using jail as a cover so that he can talk to Winston. This I evident in the text when it says"it was o brien who was directing everything"(243). O brien being the one who is directing this whole thing shoes that he is just using jail as a cover so that he can talking to Winston because if this was not the case then he would not have told the guards to not kill him.
What does I brien says about Winston how does this contribute to what I brien is trying to teach Winston ?
O brien says that Winston isn't tally deranged and he is trying to teach Winston about the world around him. O brien tells Winston "you suffer from defective memory. You are unable to remember real events and you persuade yourself that you remember events which never happened"(245). This shows that there is something wrong with Winston and this is due to the world that he is living in. So I brien is trying to cure Winston of this disease. So if Winston is cured then now o brien can teach Winston about the world around him but he cannot do that due to the disease he has. Winston remember and believes in things that never happened .